Berber
Royal Arsenal location known as "Berber"
The Suakin-Berber railway in Sudan was a short-lived military project that never reached completion. Its construction began in February 1885, being intended to provide a connection between Berber on the River Nile and Suakin on the Red Sea littoral for the rapid deployment of troops and military equipment in Britain’s involvement in the Mahdist war.
In May 1885, after barely three of months of work during which only 20 of the intended 280 miles of track had been laid, at a cost approaching £1 million, Britain suspended its war with the Mahdi, pulled out of the Sudan and terminated the Suakin-Berber railway.
The railway track was brought back and used in the Royal Arsenal.
Royal Arsenal Locations
F15, F17, F18, F19, F20, F21, F22, F23, F24, F26, F28, F30, F32, F62, F63, F64, F65, F67, F68
Todays Thamesmead streets area's near Berber
A2041 - Dinning room, Cycle sheds, Offices, road and railway line.
Attlee Road - F26 Area
Linton Mead Primary School, F18, F21 area
Tawney Road - Berber Gate Station (Royal Arsenal Railway) / Carpenters Shop - F17 Area
Berveridge Court - Berber Gate Station (Royal Arsenal Railway) - F17 Area
Saunders Way - Berber Gate Station (Royal Arsenal Railway) - F17 Area
Greenhaven Drive - F18, F19, F29, F30 area
Hasler Close - F26 area
Holt Close - F37 area
Hoverton Road - F24 area
Rollesby Way - F29, F30 area
Nickelby Close - F29, F30 area
Fantail Close - F30 Area
Castilion Primary School - F62, F63, F64, F65 area
Manor Close - Football Ground nearby
Drake Close - F28, F67
Copperfield Road - F67
Thamesbank Place F67, F23
The Suakin-Berber railway in Sudan was a short-lived military project that never reached completion. Its construction began in February 1885, being intended to provide a connection between Berber on the River Nile and Suakin on the Red Sea littoral for the rapid deployment of troops and military equipment in Britain’s involvement in the Mahdist war.
In May 1885, after barely three of months of work during which only 20 of the intended 280 miles of track had been laid, at a cost approaching £1 million, Britain suspended its war with the Mahdi, pulled out of the Sudan and terminated the Suakin-Berber railway.
The railway track was brought back and used in the Royal Arsenal.
Royal Arsenal Locations
F15, F17, F18, F19, F20, F21, F22, F23, F24, F26, F28, F30, F32, F62, F63, F64, F65, F67, F68
Todays Thamesmead streets area's near Berber
A2041 - Dinning room, Cycle sheds, Offices, road and railway line.
Attlee Road - F26 Area
Linton Mead Primary School, F18, F21 area
Tawney Road - Berber Gate Station (Royal Arsenal Railway) / Carpenters Shop - F17 Area
Berveridge Court - Berber Gate Station (Royal Arsenal Railway) - F17 Area
Saunders Way - Berber Gate Station (Royal Arsenal Railway) - F17 Area
Greenhaven Drive - F18, F19, F29, F30 area
Hasler Close - F26 area
Holt Close - F37 area
Hoverton Road - F24 area
Rollesby Way - F29, F30 area
Nickelby Close - F29, F30 area
Fantail Close - F30 Area
Castilion Primary School - F62, F63, F64, F65 area
Manor Close - Football Ground nearby
Drake Close - F28, F67
Copperfield Road - F67
Thamesbank Place F67, F23
A query about Berber from a memory of 1926
Hi,
Just enjoyed looking at your web site. Absolutely fascinating. My son gave me a book he found on the Arsenal, and I found a mention of a place called “Berber”, a place where my mother told me I was born. My dad was a Met policeman who I think was posted to a dedicated Met Police unit for the Woolwich Arsenal. I have a few distant memories of the house we lived in, which I believe was part of the Police Quarters there, and of a railway level crossing where we used to “ride” on the gates as they opened or closed, and being chased away. This must have been about 1926 as I was born in 1923. I remember the trains being of great interest to all the kids around there who I think must also have been children of other policemen. We later moved to Belvedere, where Dad was the “local Bobby”, but when he retired he went back to work in the Arsenal as a foreman in a Dept that disposed of scrap metals. He worked there from about 1937 until 1947.
I have repeatedly tried and failed to find a decent map to locate Berber. I believe it must have been at the Eastern end of the Arsenal, as I have dim memories of the Gipsies who lived on Erith Marshes and my birth was registered in Erith. I would be very grateful if you could tell me where I might locate such a map.
Thanks for such an interesting web site.
Regards,
Gordon Pavey
Just enjoyed looking at your web site. Absolutely fascinating. My son gave me a book he found on the Arsenal, and I found a mention of a place called “Berber”, a place where my mother told me I was born. My dad was a Met policeman who I think was posted to a dedicated Met Police unit for the Woolwich Arsenal. I have a few distant memories of the house we lived in, which I believe was part of the Police Quarters there, and of a railway level crossing where we used to “ride” on the gates as they opened or closed, and being chased away. This must have been about 1926 as I was born in 1923. I remember the trains being of great interest to all the kids around there who I think must also have been children of other policemen. We later moved to Belvedere, where Dad was the “local Bobby”, but when he retired he went back to work in the Arsenal as a foreman in a Dept that disposed of scrap metals. He worked there from about 1937 until 1947.
I have repeatedly tried and failed to find a decent map to locate Berber. I believe it must have been at the Eastern end of the Arsenal, as I have dim memories of the Gipsies who lived on Erith Marshes and my birth was registered in Erith. I would be very grateful if you could tell me where I might locate such a map.
Thanks for such an interesting web site.
Regards,
Gordon Pavey
Map of Berber
Compare this map to the photo of the German bombers in the background
Move along the Southern boundary until you come to the 'Harrow Gate', then moving North you come to the police quarters which extend up towards Berber. The actual quarters are in pink and the associated green areas are their allotments.
Moving further north you come to the area marked as Berber.
Moving further north you come to the area marked as Berber.
Memories of Berber through the eyes of a boy who lived there
SOME MEMORIES OF BERBER
I am surprised that so many of the faint memories I have have now proved to be facts, and not figments of imagination. I had long given up on finding the location of a place called Berber, and believed that it must have been either a house name or a local name never officially adopted. What memories I do have are brief however, since I left Berber at the age of four. when my father was transferred to Belvedere Police Station, from Woolwich Arsenal. My mother told me that I was born in Berber and that she did not like the place.
The house was typical of that era. I remember a front porch, a steep staircase and steep steps at the back door leading to a dirt yard with a chicken run housing a few hens, and a typical outdoor loo. The allotments , where we were forbidden to go unless to help my Dad were of course a great attraction to us. I can remember hiding in a shed there with several others, but the joker who had seen us there crept up to the rear of the shed and hammered on the back, causing us to run for our lives. We actually did a bit of scrumping there, especially on the gooseberries and raspberries. Th gypsies who lived on the marsh used to call round regularly with their clothes pegs. My mother always bought a few, as she reckoned that if you treated them well they wouldn’t bother you too much, and that the chalk marks they left outside was a code for a curse on people who didn’t treat them well. In those days they all had horse drawn vans, not like todays so-called travellers. We were all scared though, by the silly stories we were told, to make us keep away from them , - that the Gypsies would steal children, who would never be seen again.
Some of my most vivid memories are of the railways, which were a source of great wonder to all of us kids. Of course, we were told to “keep away from the railway” which meant that whenever we could we would get there to watch the trains. I was absolutely fascinated by steam, something which has remained with me all my life. One of the highlights of the Arsenal railway was on the occasions when the steam crane came through. I wonder if that was preserved? My brother Douglas was 15 months older than me, so was given instructions to “Look after your brother”. On one occasion we both went to the (forbidden) railway crossing with his pedal car, and I was instructed (by my caring brother) to sit on the bonnet and hold on to the crossing gate when it opened, to give us a free ride. When we related this story to my mother, many years later, she still gave Douglas a right telling off for not looking after his little brother. I am amazed that one of those lovely old engines which I must have seen in 1926/7 is now preserved in the Isle of Wight, where I now live, and is only a few miles away. I will be saying “hello” to it again before too long. Most of the materials used by the Arsenal, and the products must have been transported by rail as I don’ t remember many lorries trundling around. There was an occasion when someone of note visited the area, (I believe it was the occasion when a new gun was being demonstrated on the firing range) and everyone locally turned out to watch a procession of large cars and important people go past. Royalty perhaps? We were always aware of the firing range because of the noise, especially the one they called the “Pom-Pom”.
There were many children there, all obviously offspring of the Arsenal Police. We all seemed to get on well, and there was a great deal of of fun to be had since much of the land around the area was uncultivated.We all soon learned the trick of using a dock leaf to alleviate a nettle sting, and never to pick a dandelion for fear of peeing your pants. There was woodland not far away, but I cannot remember in which direction. Was there still a wood at Abbeywood then?
My dad had a motorbike then, which was another source of attraction to us all. I believe it was called an Ivy, or some similar name. I think it may have been a two-stroke, and know it had a belt drive as in wet weather the belt used to slip. Our neighbour, (a Police Sergeant I think), had a much grander affair, - a motor bike and side car, and I remember being much aggrieved when one day Dad took my brother with him in the side car for a trip to Chatham. I must have kicked up a shindig about being left behind, as my mother let me make ginger bread men from pastry as compensation.
I believe that at one time the Arsenal had a branch which operated on the river. Dad was seconded to this branch for a time and I have an old faded photo of him wearing e peaked cap instead of the usual helmet. Since he was an ex-mariner he would have been a likely choice to have served in this branch, although I believe it was only a temporary assignment. Much of his duty time was spent at the various gates, checking workers and visitors in and out. The gates at Woolwich, (Beresford square?) and Plumstead I remember from later years but one with the corrugated iron fencing I remember, but where was it? A familiar road name was Harrow Manor Way and must have been local, and may be where I remember shopping with my mother.
We moved to Belvedere, then to Bexleyheath and finally to Northumberland Heath, where we spent the war years. My mother was terrified during air raids, and I believe that this was the result of an incident which occurred during the 1914/18 war, when a zeppelin dropped some bombs on Woolwich, where my mother lived then. One of the bombs demolished a house on Woolwich Common, and my mother was present when they recovered two bodies, so she had seen at first hand the results of a direct hit. Her eldest sister had worked in the Arsenal during the Great War, and I remember hearing stories of an explosion. I have read about one much earlier but was there another between 1914-1918? They lived in Plumstead in terraced houses which I think may have been built specifically for Arsenal Workers. All my mother’s relatives lived in the area around Ancona and Tewson Roads.
My grandfather, Christian Tennyson Hopper, also worked there for a while but I am not sure during which years that was. He was a bit of an old rascal, but we all loved him. My mother told me that he was a charge hand on night shift, but he used to allow the girls to sleep once they had finished their work quota. Apparently his boss caught them and he was sacked.I wish I knew more of him as he was such an interesting character who knew a lot of the history of his time. He talked a lot about the Boer war, and about the Arab wars, with their “Mad Mullahs” etc. He always called me `’general”, after General Gordon. He knew the local marshes well, and would go to what he called the “sewage farm” at Crossness and dig up tomato plants which grew wild there, to sell on a stall in Beresford Square.
Sorry to have rambled on so, and got away from the subject, I wish I could tell you more, but have only the knowledge I gained as a 3 - 4 year old. I will try to find the photo I have of my Dad in the River Police section and send it.
Thank you so much for all your help, and I look forward to receiving any other information.
Regards,
Gordon Pavey
I am surprised that so many of the faint memories I have have now proved to be facts, and not figments of imagination. I had long given up on finding the location of a place called Berber, and believed that it must have been either a house name or a local name never officially adopted. What memories I do have are brief however, since I left Berber at the age of four. when my father was transferred to Belvedere Police Station, from Woolwich Arsenal. My mother told me that I was born in Berber and that she did not like the place.
The house was typical of that era. I remember a front porch, a steep staircase and steep steps at the back door leading to a dirt yard with a chicken run housing a few hens, and a typical outdoor loo. The allotments , where we were forbidden to go unless to help my Dad were of course a great attraction to us. I can remember hiding in a shed there with several others, but the joker who had seen us there crept up to the rear of the shed and hammered on the back, causing us to run for our lives. We actually did a bit of scrumping there, especially on the gooseberries and raspberries. Th gypsies who lived on the marsh used to call round regularly with their clothes pegs. My mother always bought a few, as she reckoned that if you treated them well they wouldn’t bother you too much, and that the chalk marks they left outside was a code for a curse on people who didn’t treat them well. In those days they all had horse drawn vans, not like todays so-called travellers. We were all scared though, by the silly stories we were told, to make us keep away from them , - that the Gypsies would steal children, who would never be seen again.
Some of my most vivid memories are of the railways, which were a source of great wonder to all of us kids. Of course, we were told to “keep away from the railway” which meant that whenever we could we would get there to watch the trains. I was absolutely fascinated by steam, something which has remained with me all my life. One of the highlights of the Arsenal railway was on the occasions when the steam crane came through. I wonder if that was preserved? My brother Douglas was 15 months older than me, so was given instructions to “Look after your brother”. On one occasion we both went to the (forbidden) railway crossing with his pedal car, and I was instructed (by my caring brother) to sit on the bonnet and hold on to the crossing gate when it opened, to give us a free ride. When we related this story to my mother, many years later, she still gave Douglas a right telling off for not looking after his little brother. I am amazed that one of those lovely old engines which I must have seen in 1926/7 is now preserved in the Isle of Wight, where I now live, and is only a few miles away. I will be saying “hello” to it again before too long. Most of the materials used by the Arsenal, and the products must have been transported by rail as I don’ t remember many lorries trundling around. There was an occasion when someone of note visited the area, (I believe it was the occasion when a new gun was being demonstrated on the firing range) and everyone locally turned out to watch a procession of large cars and important people go past. Royalty perhaps? We were always aware of the firing range because of the noise, especially the one they called the “Pom-Pom”.
There were many children there, all obviously offspring of the Arsenal Police. We all seemed to get on well, and there was a great deal of of fun to be had since much of the land around the area was uncultivated.We all soon learned the trick of using a dock leaf to alleviate a nettle sting, and never to pick a dandelion for fear of peeing your pants. There was woodland not far away, but I cannot remember in which direction. Was there still a wood at Abbeywood then?
My dad had a motorbike then, which was another source of attraction to us all. I believe it was called an Ivy, or some similar name. I think it may have been a two-stroke, and know it had a belt drive as in wet weather the belt used to slip. Our neighbour, (a Police Sergeant I think), had a much grander affair, - a motor bike and side car, and I remember being much aggrieved when one day Dad took my brother with him in the side car for a trip to Chatham. I must have kicked up a shindig about being left behind, as my mother let me make ginger bread men from pastry as compensation.
I believe that at one time the Arsenal had a branch which operated on the river. Dad was seconded to this branch for a time and I have an old faded photo of him wearing e peaked cap instead of the usual helmet. Since he was an ex-mariner he would have been a likely choice to have served in this branch, although I believe it was only a temporary assignment. Much of his duty time was spent at the various gates, checking workers and visitors in and out. The gates at Woolwich, (Beresford square?) and Plumstead I remember from later years but one with the corrugated iron fencing I remember, but where was it? A familiar road name was Harrow Manor Way and must have been local, and may be where I remember shopping with my mother.
We moved to Belvedere, then to Bexleyheath and finally to Northumberland Heath, where we spent the war years. My mother was terrified during air raids, and I believe that this was the result of an incident which occurred during the 1914/18 war, when a zeppelin dropped some bombs on Woolwich, where my mother lived then. One of the bombs demolished a house on Woolwich Common, and my mother was present when they recovered two bodies, so she had seen at first hand the results of a direct hit. Her eldest sister had worked in the Arsenal during the Great War, and I remember hearing stories of an explosion. I have read about one much earlier but was there another between 1914-1918? They lived in Plumstead in terraced houses which I think may have been built specifically for Arsenal Workers. All my mother’s relatives lived in the area around Ancona and Tewson Roads.
My grandfather, Christian Tennyson Hopper, also worked there for a while but I am not sure during which years that was. He was a bit of an old rascal, but we all loved him. My mother told me that he was a charge hand on night shift, but he used to allow the girls to sleep once they had finished their work quota. Apparently his boss caught them and he was sacked.I wish I knew more of him as he was such an interesting character who knew a lot of the history of his time. He talked a lot about the Boer war, and about the Arab wars, with their “Mad Mullahs” etc. He always called me `’general”, after General Gordon. He knew the local marshes well, and would go to what he called the “sewage farm” at Crossness and dig up tomato plants which grew wild there, to sell on a stall in Beresford Square.
Sorry to have rambled on so, and got away from the subject, I wish I could tell you more, but have only the knowledge I gained as a 3 - 4 year old. I will try to find the photo I have of my Dad in the River Police section and send it.
Thank you so much for all your help, and I look forward to receiving any other information.
Regards,
Gordon Pavey
Response's to Gordon by Ian Bull - The history of Berber
Response 1 - A query about Berber from a memory of 1926
The Royal Arsenal was founded in July 1517 as the 'Woolwich Gun
Wharf', close to where the Woolwich Ferry is today. The Arsenal's
expansion Eastwards mirrored the growth of the British Empire. By
1890 it covered all of the land to the North of Plumstead Road
between Woolwich and Griffin Manor Way. It also leased large parts of
the Plumstead and Erith marshes to the East as ranges for the
proofing and testing of guns.
The Arsenal never manufactured Gunpowder but by 1890 was producing
large quantities of High Explosive and it was becoming apparent that
the storage and transhipping of such powerful materials was becoming
dangerous in the increasingly cramped site available. Thus 1891/2 saw
the Royal Arsenal Railway extend Eastward, beyond the walls, to
establish a depot just West of Cross Ness Point. A major explosives
handling pier would be constructed at Cross Ness in about 1903. It is
from this railway line that the name 'Berber' was derived.
By 1880 Britain's African Empire extended from Egypt to Cape Town,
but in 1882 Sudanese Tribesmen began an insurrection. In an effort to
persuade the Sudanese to accept further British influence General
Charles Gordon was sent to Khartoum as he had great knowledge of the
area. He was killed there in January 1885. By this time the Royal
Engineers had developed a narrow gauge railway system, 18 inches
between the rails, which they expected would provide improved
logistics both in the field of battle and at "Arsenals, Depots, and
Dockyards". Many miles of 18" gauge railway had been laid in the
Royal Arsenal from 1871 and had proven very successful. To re-take
Sudan a plan was devised in which hundreds of miles of prefabricated
railway would be shipped to the British held port of Suakin on the
Red Sea Coast. This would be laid inland to meet the Nile in an area
called Berber. Such a railway would obviate the difficulties of
taking an Army up the Nile through treacherous rapids or across the
desert of Southern Egypt. The project was known as the 'Berber Suakin
Railway'.
The entire railway, its locomotives and its rolling stock, was
assembled at Woolwich and upon arrival at Suakin was laid behind the
advancing troops to supply them. Construction began in February 1885
but the troops found this a difficult campaign. The Sudanese were
well-armed and had expertise in camouflage and Guerilla tactics that
the British found difficult to counter. Also, there was little
enthusiasm for the campaign in Parliament and after vast expenditure
the entire venture was abandoned in May 1885. This defeat led to the
resignation of Gladstone's Government in June.
The railway was largely retrieved and by 1886 was back at Woolwich.
With miles of redundant rails available the Royal Arsenal Railway was
able to extend easily. The result was that the 1891/2 extension out
towards Cross Ness, mentioned above, was constructed from what was
intended to be the Berber Suakin Railway. The extension became known
as the 'Berber Road'. There was nothing in the vicinity of Cross Ness
Point except farmland and marsh at the time but as the military
purchased more land and erected more buildings the area became known
as 'Berber'. The railway's Eastern passenger terminus was inevitably
called 'Berber Station'.
In 1903 the Arsenal's High Explosive factory exploded with great loss
of life. It was immediately decided to build a very much larger plant
by the Thames near Tripcock Point. This would have such huge output
that a series of new Magazines would be required to store the
munitions and these would have to be isolated and remote from one
another. To build them the land East of Griffin Manor Way was
purchased in its entirety between 1903 and 1907. At that time the
Gypsies over-wintered near Cross Ness and, now being required to
move, they purchased land on the Marshes near Belvedere. I expect
that's where you remember them from.
The new Magazines were designed and located so that had one exploded
it would not cause its neighbour to detonate and its debris would
land in the Thames rather than on Plumstead or Abbey Wood! They were
constructed before all the farmland was purchased and thus each was
walled and provided with Police to guard it. Being separated from the
nearest habitation by marshland it was necessary to provide the
Police with their own accommodation so, the house you were probably
born in would have been built between 1904 and 1907. These land
purchases completed the Arsenal, it now covered two square miles and
was the largest factory site in the UK.
The Police Houses were actually about 3/4 mile South of the area that
the Arsenal called Berber but that was the nearest named location so,
your Mother was quite right. More Police Quarters were built there
shortly afterwards and were joined by houses, and some flats, for
Firemen and the Magazine supervisors. I understand that the children
were educated at Crossness Sewage Works, just over the Sewer
Embankment. Perhaps you went to school there too. The Quarters were
self-sufficient with their own allotments, chicken runs, and pig sties.
The railway gates you 'rode' on would have been about a third of the
way between the Sewer Bank and the River on the original Harrow Manor
Way. (Next door to the Police Quarters No. 57) The line would have
been one of the later Standard Gauge railways built at about the
beginning of the First World War. Two of the Locomotives you would
have seen are preserved. The 'Invincible' is on the Isle of Wight
Steam Railway and 'Lion' is at the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway.
There's quite an amount of the narrow gauge equipment preserved too,
I'm actively involved in restoring the last of the 18" gauge steam
locomotives, the 'Woolwich'.
Wharf', close to where the Woolwich Ferry is today. The Arsenal's
expansion Eastwards mirrored the growth of the British Empire. By
1890 it covered all of the land to the North of Plumstead Road
between Woolwich and Griffin Manor Way. It also leased large parts of
the Plumstead and Erith marshes to the East as ranges for the
proofing and testing of guns.
The Arsenal never manufactured Gunpowder but by 1890 was producing
large quantities of High Explosive and it was becoming apparent that
the storage and transhipping of such powerful materials was becoming
dangerous in the increasingly cramped site available. Thus 1891/2 saw
the Royal Arsenal Railway extend Eastward, beyond the walls, to
establish a depot just West of Cross Ness Point. A major explosives
handling pier would be constructed at Cross Ness in about 1903. It is
from this railway line that the name 'Berber' was derived.
By 1880 Britain's African Empire extended from Egypt to Cape Town,
but in 1882 Sudanese Tribesmen began an insurrection. In an effort to
persuade the Sudanese to accept further British influence General
Charles Gordon was sent to Khartoum as he had great knowledge of the
area. He was killed there in January 1885. By this time the Royal
Engineers had developed a narrow gauge railway system, 18 inches
between the rails, which they expected would provide improved
logistics both in the field of battle and at "Arsenals, Depots, and
Dockyards". Many miles of 18" gauge railway had been laid in the
Royal Arsenal from 1871 and had proven very successful. To re-take
Sudan a plan was devised in which hundreds of miles of prefabricated
railway would be shipped to the British held port of Suakin on the
Red Sea Coast. This would be laid inland to meet the Nile in an area
called Berber. Such a railway would obviate the difficulties of
taking an Army up the Nile through treacherous rapids or across the
desert of Southern Egypt. The project was known as the 'Berber Suakin
Railway'.
The entire railway, its locomotives and its rolling stock, was
assembled at Woolwich and upon arrival at Suakin was laid behind the
advancing troops to supply them. Construction began in February 1885
but the troops found this a difficult campaign. The Sudanese were
well-armed and had expertise in camouflage and Guerilla tactics that
the British found difficult to counter. Also, there was little
enthusiasm for the campaign in Parliament and after vast expenditure
the entire venture was abandoned in May 1885. This defeat led to the
resignation of Gladstone's Government in June.
The railway was largely retrieved and by 1886 was back at Woolwich.
With miles of redundant rails available the Royal Arsenal Railway was
able to extend easily. The result was that the 1891/2 extension out
towards Cross Ness, mentioned above, was constructed from what was
intended to be the Berber Suakin Railway. The extension became known
as the 'Berber Road'. There was nothing in the vicinity of Cross Ness
Point except farmland and marsh at the time but as the military
purchased more land and erected more buildings the area became known
as 'Berber'. The railway's Eastern passenger terminus was inevitably
called 'Berber Station'.
In 1903 the Arsenal's High Explosive factory exploded with great loss
of life. It was immediately decided to build a very much larger plant
by the Thames near Tripcock Point. This would have such huge output
that a series of new Magazines would be required to store the
munitions and these would have to be isolated and remote from one
another. To build them the land East of Griffin Manor Way was
purchased in its entirety between 1903 and 1907. At that time the
Gypsies over-wintered near Cross Ness and, now being required to
move, they purchased land on the Marshes near Belvedere. I expect
that's where you remember them from.
The new Magazines were designed and located so that had one exploded
it would not cause its neighbour to detonate and its debris would
land in the Thames rather than on Plumstead or Abbey Wood! They were
constructed before all the farmland was purchased and thus each was
walled and provided with Police to guard it. Being separated from the
nearest habitation by marshland it was necessary to provide the
Police with their own accommodation so, the house you were probably
born in would have been built between 1904 and 1907. These land
purchases completed the Arsenal, it now covered two square miles and
was the largest factory site in the UK.
The Police Houses were actually about 3/4 mile South of the area that
the Arsenal called Berber but that was the nearest named location so,
your Mother was quite right. More Police Quarters were built there
shortly afterwards and were joined by houses, and some flats, for
Firemen and the Magazine supervisors. I understand that the children
were educated at Crossness Sewage Works, just over the Sewer
Embankment. Perhaps you went to school there too. The Quarters were
self-sufficient with their own allotments, chicken runs, and pig sties.
The railway gates you 'rode' on would have been about a third of the
way between the Sewer Bank and the River on the original Harrow Manor
Way. (Next door to the Police Quarters No. 57) The line would have
been one of the later Standard Gauge railways built at about the
beginning of the First World War. Two of the Locomotives you would
have seen are preserved. The 'Invincible' is on the Isle of Wight
Steam Railway and 'Lion' is at the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway.
There's quite an amount of the narrow gauge equipment preserved too,
I'm actively involved in restoring the last of the 18" gauge steam
locomotives, the 'Woolwich'.
Response 2 - Memories of Berber through the eyes of a boy who lived there
Hullo Gordon
It's marvellous to read of your memories and all of them are so
accurate! I don't think many people would have such recollections
from the age of four.
I'm told that the Arsenal locomotive 'Invincible' is currently on
display in the exhibition building at Havenstreet railway station.
You can contact the railway here...
E-Mail: info@iwsteamrailway.co.uk
TEL: 01983 882204
Do tell them about your memories of the Locos in the Royal Arsenal.
I'm afraid that none of the railway's steam cranes survive today. In
fact, considering how large the system was, not much does survive.
You're correct in assuming that the Arsenal preferred railway to road
transport. Many of the structures, including almost all of the
Magazines, never had any road communication right up to their closure
in the early 1960s. The railway network was no less than 147 miles
long and has been confirmed by the Industrial Railway Society as the
most complex and dense system in British history. An excellent new
book about the railway is due to be published next month. Details
here...
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-Royal-Arsenal-Railways-Hardback/p/
11816
Very many people of note visited the Arsenal and that certainly
included Royalty both from here and overseas. There were too many
visits to be able to work out which one you remember. Many of the
visits were done quite privately and only known about within the
Arsenal. Sir Winston Churchill made many private visits to the
Arsenal as he took a keen interest in munitions design and
development. He was most enthusiastic about the work done at Woolwich
on the use of metals as explosives. This led to the Atomic Bomb.
Abbey Wood is named after Lesnes Abbey Woods, a large tract of
woodland immediately South of the town. These are certainly still
there and at 8,000 years old are the finest ancient woodland in the
London area. These are on a series of hills up to 200 feet high and
these may well be what you saw as they are easily visible from the
Arsenal's site.
Your Father could very easily have worked for the Marine Branch. This
was extensive and the vessels were both based and maintained at the
Woolwich. Vast amounts of shipping loaded and unloaded at the
Arsenal's quays and the the four mile riverside was patrolled
continuously for security reasons. The gates that were made of
corrugated iron were at the Southern end of Harrow Manor Way, very
close to the Police quarters. Much of the Arsenal's fence was
corrugated iron in that area. See notes about photographs later.
The Arsenal was actually a very safe place in which to work. I expect
you've read of the bad explosion in 1903 but there wasn't another the
early 1930s when perhaps half a dozen scientists were killed whilst
developing the new explosive called RDX. There would have been many
smaller explosions resulting from faulty or mis-handled detonators.
Most of these passed without serious injury but fingers might be
lost. Two men were killed in 1952 when a '25 Pounder' shell exploded
whilst being handled. Since I've been studying the Arsenal I've been
asked more about explosions than any other subject and many as
disappointed when I explain how few there were!
Many terraced houses were built for Arsenal workers in the First
World War but not in Plumstead, rather a couple of miles South in
Eltham. This was the 'Progress Estate' and is still a very popular
place to live today. There's an article here...
http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/case-studies/progress-estate
In such parts of Plumstead as Ancona Road it's quite likely that
people living in every house worked in the Arsenal but these roads
weren't built specially for that purpose. Ancona Road is still very
much there today and only the day before yesterday I recommended that
a friend consider buying a house there!
PHOTOGRAPHS AND MAPS
Photography was illegal in the Arsenal but following the 1953 floods
one of the Police Officer's Wives just couldn't resist, she kept them
private until the 1990s! I'm attaching some of those photos and they
are probably the only ever taken of your birthplace. There are more
but I don't have copies of them here.
<photos can be seen on Thamesmead page>
The first, 'Eastern Floods 1', shows what might have been the
corrugated iron gates you mention. It's taken from the top of the
Sewer Embankment that ran along the South side of the Arsenal. I
think it's more likely that this shows the gates to Cross Manor Way
rather than Harrow Manor Way.
'Eastern Floods 2' shows the more Northerly Police Quarters. As these
are Bungalows they won't be where you were born but if you followed
the road seen on the right you'd come the the railway gates that you
described. No sign of a pedal car though!
'Eastern Floods 3' shows what may have been your home on the right.
It's a view looking East towards Crossness Sewage works, you can see
the Sewer Embankment in the background.
'Eastern Floods 4' might be the best photo of the bunch. Here are two
of the buildings, each a semi-detached house, and there's a very
strong chance that one of these was your home.
As I say, there are more of these and I will be seeing the man who
has the rest on Tuesday. I'll see if I can arrange with him to get
copies of the rest.
I'm attaching a map from 1920 called 'Berber-East Arsenal.pdf', you
can enlarge this a great deal. The Police Quarters and Allotments
have a red line around them. Your home would have been at the
Southern end of them as you had a staircase. The one's nearer the
Level Crossing were all Bungalows.
Harrow Manor Way is the South/North Road that passes through the
Quarters.
At the Northern end of Harrow Manor Way you come to the area called
Berber, as you can see, it was quite large. You'll find Berber
Railway Station right at the Northern end of Harrow Manor Way.
It's marvellous to read of your memories and all of them are so
accurate! I don't think many people would have such recollections
from the age of four.
I'm told that the Arsenal locomotive 'Invincible' is currently on
display in the exhibition building at Havenstreet railway station.
You can contact the railway here...
E-Mail: info@iwsteamrailway.co.uk
TEL: 01983 882204
Do tell them about your memories of the Locos in the Royal Arsenal.
I'm afraid that none of the railway's steam cranes survive today. In
fact, considering how large the system was, not much does survive.
You're correct in assuming that the Arsenal preferred railway to road
transport. Many of the structures, including almost all of the
Magazines, never had any road communication right up to their closure
in the early 1960s. The railway network was no less than 147 miles
long and has been confirmed by the Industrial Railway Society as the
most complex and dense system in British history. An excellent new
book about the railway is due to be published next month. Details
here...
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-Royal-Arsenal-Railways-Hardback/p/
11816
Very many people of note visited the Arsenal and that certainly
included Royalty both from here and overseas. There were too many
visits to be able to work out which one you remember. Many of the
visits were done quite privately and only known about within the
Arsenal. Sir Winston Churchill made many private visits to the
Arsenal as he took a keen interest in munitions design and
development. He was most enthusiastic about the work done at Woolwich
on the use of metals as explosives. This led to the Atomic Bomb.
Abbey Wood is named after Lesnes Abbey Woods, a large tract of
woodland immediately South of the town. These are certainly still
there and at 8,000 years old are the finest ancient woodland in the
London area. These are on a series of hills up to 200 feet high and
these may well be what you saw as they are easily visible from the
Arsenal's site.
Your Father could very easily have worked for the Marine Branch. This
was extensive and the vessels were both based and maintained at the
Woolwich. Vast amounts of shipping loaded and unloaded at the
Arsenal's quays and the the four mile riverside was patrolled
continuously for security reasons. The gates that were made of
corrugated iron were at the Southern end of Harrow Manor Way, very
close to the Police quarters. Much of the Arsenal's fence was
corrugated iron in that area. See notes about photographs later.
The Arsenal was actually a very safe place in which to work. I expect
you've read of the bad explosion in 1903 but there wasn't another the
early 1930s when perhaps half a dozen scientists were killed whilst
developing the new explosive called RDX. There would have been many
smaller explosions resulting from faulty or mis-handled detonators.
Most of these passed without serious injury but fingers might be
lost. Two men were killed in 1952 when a '25 Pounder' shell exploded
whilst being handled. Since I've been studying the Arsenal I've been
asked more about explosions than any other subject and many as
disappointed when I explain how few there were!
Many terraced houses were built for Arsenal workers in the First
World War but not in Plumstead, rather a couple of miles South in
Eltham. This was the 'Progress Estate' and is still a very popular
place to live today. There's an article here...
http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/case-studies/progress-estate
In such parts of Plumstead as Ancona Road it's quite likely that
people living in every house worked in the Arsenal but these roads
weren't built specially for that purpose. Ancona Road is still very
much there today and only the day before yesterday I recommended that
a friend consider buying a house there!
PHOTOGRAPHS AND MAPS
Photography was illegal in the Arsenal but following the 1953 floods
one of the Police Officer's Wives just couldn't resist, she kept them
private until the 1990s! I'm attaching some of those photos and they
are probably the only ever taken of your birthplace. There are more
but I don't have copies of them here.
<photos can be seen on Thamesmead page>
The first, 'Eastern Floods 1', shows what might have been the
corrugated iron gates you mention. It's taken from the top of the
Sewer Embankment that ran along the South side of the Arsenal. I
think it's more likely that this shows the gates to Cross Manor Way
rather than Harrow Manor Way.
'Eastern Floods 2' shows the more Northerly Police Quarters. As these
are Bungalows they won't be where you were born but if you followed
the road seen on the right you'd come the the railway gates that you
described. No sign of a pedal car though!
'Eastern Floods 3' shows what may have been your home on the right.
It's a view looking East towards Crossness Sewage works, you can see
the Sewer Embankment in the background.
'Eastern Floods 4' might be the best photo of the bunch. Here are two
of the buildings, each a semi-detached house, and there's a very
strong chance that one of these was your home.
As I say, there are more of these and I will be seeing the man who
has the rest on Tuesday. I'll see if I can arrange with him to get
copies of the rest.
I'm attaching a map from 1920 called 'Berber-East Arsenal.pdf', you
can enlarge this a great deal. The Police Quarters and Allotments
have a red line around them. Your home would have been at the
Southern end of them as you had a staircase. The one's nearer the
Level Crossing were all Bungalows.
Harrow Manor Way is the South/North Road that passes through the
Quarters.
At the Northern end of Harrow Manor Way you come to the area called
Berber, as you can see, it was quite large. You'll find Berber
Railway Station right at the Northern end of Harrow Manor Way.
There also a location map. The rectangle shows the extent of the
Berber-East Arsenal map. Note Lesnes Abbey Woods to the South.
Lastly, I remain most impressed by your recollection. Your Father's
motorcycle was most likely an Ivy for they had friction drive. They
are now rare, and worth a fortune!
All the best
Berber-East Arsenal map. Note Lesnes Abbey Woods to the South.
Lastly, I remain most impressed by your recollection. Your Father's
motorcycle was most likely an Ivy for they had friction drive. They
are now rare, and worth a fortune!
All the best